Recruiting Smarter and Harder – Jamie Woods of JCW

Jamie Woods, CEO of JCW

Jamie Woods, CEO of JCW, grew his company’s revenue from around $15 million in 2016 to around $30 million in 2018, a 100% increase.  

JCW provides recruitment services to firms in key industry hubs across the globe.  

In this interview with Eversprint‘s Malcolm Lui, Jamie shares how he and his team accelerated their high value sales by:  

  • Growing their headcount with entry level recruiters who typically generate profits for the firm by year three.  
  • Providing ongoing training and support to their new and experienced recruiters so they can continue to improve their skills and results.  
  • Retaining a highly mobile workforce through a culture that fosters growth and by providing them a clear career path.  

Computer generated transcript - JCW Interview (transcribed by Sonix)

Download the "Computer generated transcript - JCW Interview" audio file directly from here. It was automatically transcribed by Sonix.ai below:

Malcolm Lui: Welcome to the High Value Sales Show of Eversprint.com. I'm Malcolm Lui, the Managing Member of Eversprint, and today we're speaking with Jamie Woods, the CEO of JCW, a provider of recruitment services to firms in key industry hubs across the globe. Welcome to the show Jamie.

Jamie Woods: Hi Malcolm, how are you?

Malcolm Lui: I'm doing well. How's things for you? You're in the U.K. right now, right?

Jamie Woods: Yeah yeah. And it's a rare sunny day here in the UK. So yeah I'm doing fine.

Malcolm Lui: Nice. You get to enjoy those days.

Jamie Woods: Yeah Yeah. Enough enough.

Malcolm Lui: Jamie, you grew your company's revenue from around $15 million in 2016 to around $30 million in 2018, a 100% increase. Before we talk about how you grew your company so fast, can you briefly share what your company does beyond my quick intro, and how your company differs from the competition?

Jamie Woods: So we're a recruitment company. Organisations of all sorts of different shapes and sizes across a variety of different sectors that are struggling to hire people for one reason or another will come to us. We will go out to the market. Got our own network of people that we know across these various specialist sectors. We will speak to them on the behalf of our clients. We will make the introduction and where those introductions are successful and at least to our clients. Hiring the people we introduce will charge a fee. Yes how we differentiate ourselves we differentiate ourselves across a number of different ways. But I think the key thing about a study that is slightly different is we are very specialists in the different areas that we work with. So all the different consultants that work for us as an organisation have a fairly narrow area of expertise and fairly narrow coverage of markets. So if you're sitting there and it's you're if you're a small I.T. startup client for example you're looking to hire someone who is maybe an expert in A.I. or machine learning consultant you'll be speaking to someone who just does A.I. machine learning introductions day in day out so they'll know the market to front. There are a few other elements of our model that I guess differentiates mothers from the main way is that specialist model rather than the more generalist recruitment model which you typically can find in the US.

Malcolm Lui: Right. What industries are or specialties to specialize in

Jamie Woods: So we have a multi-brand module so we've got four separate brands across the business. We have the core brand of J CW which focuses on the financial services sector. We have countless Life Sciences which as the title suggests works for life sciences and healthcare organizations. We have cybernetic search which is more into this specialist technology market. And then we have a brand called out Scout which again works mainly with the technology sector but instead of providing technologists they place sales people marketers and also product professionals

Malcolm Lui: In the

Jamie Woods: So

Malcolm Lui: Tech

Jamie Woods: A range

Malcolm Lui: Space

Jamie Woods: Of different industries. That's right primarily

Malcolm Lui: Ok great. So what's the thinking about having totally different brand names as opposed to doing everything under J.C.. Debbie

Jamie Woods: Yeah it's it's not it's not completely unique in our sector. So there are a few other firms out that have done it and done it very well. The main thinking behind it just links to my early point in that. You need to not only be very specialists in your approach to your clients but you also need to be perceived to be specialist otherwise your clients don't tend to want to work their way in for the most part. Most of our clients out there aren't really that interested in dealing with the larger more generalist. So if we just presented ourselves as one brand that's working across a number of different industries that aren't particularly closely linked it gives us a bit of a perception issue and we're also in opposition where by having different brands it allows us to establish slightly different working cultures across those respective teams so that if you have a particularly industry type. If I take for example the I.T. industry compared to the financial services sector there's a two very different sectors that have very different work and cultures and very different expectations from their recruitment suppliers spin offs us having separate brands allows us effectively to run those different offices almost as completely different businesses with their own work and cultures that reflective of what our clients want to say and need to see from a recruiter provider

Malcolm Lui: Now are these four different brands they have are they also for separate offices physically

Jamie Woods: For the most part yes. Yes there is. There is some degree of crossover and I think as the business grows there will be a lot more crossover where each of our different offices five offices globally. Eventually I'd imagine each of our different offices will have quite a bit of crossover where they'll have multiple brands in each office. But for the time being our offices are effectively single brand offices

Malcolm Lui: And ended it. And did you have the structure because it was done through mergers and acquisitions over the years.

Jamie Woods: No no set up the business again slightly unusual compared to some of our sort of fast growth peers. We've grown purely organically so yet never made any acquisition or even taken on any kind of external funding going to the

Malcolm Lui: So when you decide to go into a new market you would just physically set up a new office and build a new team

Jamie Woods: Effectively

Malcolm Lui: Right.

Jamie Woods: Yet.

Malcolm Lui: All right. Got it. So for the past couple of years your business grew quite rapidly 15 million in 2016. You doubled it two years later to 30 million. What were the drivers behind that

Jamie Woods: As in How did we go about achieving that. Or why are we looking to do that.

Malcolm Lui: Most stuck to the how first. Like how did you grow your business double your business in two years.

Jamie Woods: So as I say all the growth is organic and when we talk about going to growth most of the growth that we engineer is really through headcount. So hiring new people recruitment companies is slightly unusual in that the reason there isn't really a product that we create and then sell our product is our ability to make introductions and provide that service and each consultant that works for us. 90 percent of our workforce are consultants so that people face off to the clients and the wider industry. They effectively operate as their own independent business where they're tasked with going out finding clients and then going on delivering on those clients requirements. So if we're in a situation where we're looking to go from 10 million revenue to 30 million revenue typically the only way you go about achieving that kind of growth is by some fairly aggressive headcount growth which is exactly what we did. Then again we slog and usually it is a business that nearly all of our headcount growth let's say 40 90 percent of our hires over the last two or three years are our entry level hires. So the people that we typically have got some kind of college degree that won't generally have had any experience with any of our competitors and they won't have had any recruiting experience whatsoever really.

Jamie Woods: We bring them in they're a blank slate. We teach them how to recruit and the way that we think is the best way in order to sort of look after clients and also make them a successful recruitment consultant around right. And then we build them up when we grow that business that way. So that will go to growth is partly as a result of hiring a lot more people at the entry level and then build them up over the last years. But the is largely off the back of us having done that for effectively the last decade. So most of our senior managers and directors think all of them bar maybe one or two people that we hired at one point as trainees fresh out of university and train them up from scratch. So this organic growth story for us is one that kind of goes right back to the first year of the business when we first start hiring and then start training people up to be our future leaders.

Malcolm Lui: Now the are the entry level folks you hire and able to carry business for you. Within a year that quickly

Jamie Woods: No no it's the truth of it. There's there's a handful of them are a minority of people that we've been on boards will deliver a profit. The typical model which probably not unique to our industry is that for every person or high will make a will make a fairly sizable loss on them in the first year the second year they would just about break even. And then the third year they'll go into profit making territory. So you need to be one of the ways in which you have to try and differentiate yourself as a business like ours is to try and make sure that the people you're hiring are people who are not only going to be successful in the role and have the skill set out that required to be successful in this role but they need to be people who are going to do we're going to stick it out. It's typically even that even the best performers won't really break even until the 18 month mark and that's quite rare. The average hire will start making consistent profit in year 3. So it's sort of absolute priority that you have people that you're confident going to make over the long term and not not join you and decide that she don't want to be a recruiter after all they want to go and do something different.

Malcolm Lui: Right and you compensate people then on a sales each comes to them on a salary and commission sort of structure that works

Jamie Woods: Basically yeah. Basically it's a slightly it's slightly more complex than that but people are people are paid on performance. And in all honesty that's that's probably the major attractions working in recruitment generally and the working at J W specific rate is. You do have the opportunity considering you're someone coming in as an entry level person without any kind of experience. You do have the opportunity to earn a substantial sum of money which is typically a lot more than that would be available in another industry. Normally because profit margins and recruitment sector are quite healthy because you know we don't have a product that we are creating in some factory that needs to be paid for and sold our product is effectively our consultants and their ability to have a great network and make great introductions. So the consultants have you know I guess a lot of power and are paid accordingly.

Malcolm Lui: Right. So the growth that you achieve from two thousand sixteen to two thousand eighteen. And those are from your hires from several years ago more than anything else. Right

Jamie Woods: That's

Malcolm Lui: So

Jamie Woods: Right.

Malcolm Lui: You see

Jamie Woods: That's right.

Malcolm Lui: A surge in hiring in two thousand thirteen herself that led to the growth from

Jamie Woods: Yes.

Malcolm Lui: 16

Jamie Woods: Yeah. And to be honest with you I mean we've been growing in headcount pretty consistently for the last seven eleven twelve years now established in 2007. But yeah. Yeah realistically all the people we tried out last year for example they weren't really substantially stop contributing to revenue until probably 2020 now.

Malcolm Lui: Okay. So would you say that you're you know if you hired say 10 10 consultants right out of college how many of those would still be will be in the profitable Camp Three years later and how many will left business

Jamie Woods: Yeah. That's that's a good question. So and that's one of the most important questions that we ask ourselves and one of most important things that we try to maximize. So the the unofficial statistic that people throw around in our industry as a whole is that only 20 percent of people will be left. This is industry wide. Only 20 percent of people would be left on that third year. And the other 80 percent would have left the industry completely gone and done something else. Our statistic we don't specifically track the percentages there for three years but anecdotally we would say about half of our people are still here on that third. Yeah. That have the exact stat. I'm pretty sure it's it's about that we track more around the sort of 18 month mark.

Malcolm Lui: Okay.

Jamie Woods: But yeah about half of them typically.

Malcolm Lui: Okay so sounds to me that you must have some processes in place that are more effective than the industry average

Jamie Woods: Yeah. A lot of things so to me we were very we work very hard to make sure that the people that we're hiring are not only told about all the great things about the job in the industry and our company but they're told about all the challenging things as well. That told about how hard it's going to be if the first 18 months how hard they're going to work how much pressure that our pizza be put themselves under. All the difference is different to the stresses and strains of the role. We don't just sit there and talk about how great it's all going to be and how much how successful they're going to be and all the rest of it. Some of our competitors do. So I think we manage expectations very clearly. You want people to be completely aware of what they're getting themselves into not just the good bits but the bad bits as well. But I say more important than that once they are in the company and doing the job. We work incredibly hard to make sure that our culture is the type of work and culture that really keeps people in because there is a couple of battles or fighting when it comes to staff attention. One of the battles of fighting is yet the trainees that we hire. You want to stick in the job long enough to be successful so that actually we get return on all the money that we're investing in them. But then once someone is up and running you also know they're making a good return on that investment. You also need to have a business which is sort of keeping them engaged and keeping them within this company because recruitment is slightly unusual in that there's very low barriers to entry.

Jamie Woods: It's very easy for a recruiter to just leave one business and then walk into another business. Very easy for them to do that and it's a very competitive market. So there's a lot of compelling offers that get made to draw people away and you leave and get a small portion of people that would be tempted to do what I did and they start their own business. You need to have a coach that's not only going to. Maximize the number of good people that you keep that you hire at entry level but you want to keep them after that point as well you want to keep the ones they're running and they're at senior level. You need to work even harder to keep them. I think that's that's where we perform a lot better than some of our competitors and we've won a few different awards for what the working environment is like here and the strength of our culture. And it's not. If I look at my job as CEO making sure that culture is in place and it's fairly consistent across the different offices that we've got and that wherever you are in our business you're waking up in the morning and you're actually looking forwards coming into the office working with the people you work with and they're doing the type of work that we're doing that takes up a lot of my time and is one of my top priorities.

Malcolm Lui: So the recap sounds like the drivers that you share with me one you consistently grew your headcount to. You

Jamie Woods: Yeah.

Malcolm Lui: Have

Jamie Woods: Oh.

Malcolm Lui: To proces and the systems in place to help the people you hire hierarchy be successful within the first 18 months and three years. And the third one is that you also have a culture as well as systems and processes to keep the people as they develop and mature and become really good at the jobs. Is that

Jamie Woods: Yes.

Malcolm Lui: About the

Jamie Woods: Yeah. Yeah I think that's a great summary.

Malcolm Lui: Ok. Now in terms of growing your headcount and recruiting people how do you go about doing that. Are you doing the typical college recruiting or are you doing more of online recruiting process and you have job postings and the various job boards. What's your process for hiring

Jamie Woods: We pretty much all of that to be honest. So we have you know I mentioned earlier that the job can be very difficult. People come in at entry level we need to prepare them accordingly. And with that in mind it's actually quite difficult for us to find the right people. I think a lot of people assume if you're a recruitment company it must mean that you must be really good at recruiting people come to work for you but that's often represents a fairly substantial challenge in and of itself. So we've got sort of a multi-channel approach. We attract candidates to us in a number of different sort of very proactive ways and we also go after them and trudge up and down at college and universities and all the rest of it that we're not yet where we're pretty open minded when it comes to people we hire here. In all honesty academic Academic excellence is not necessarily the key indicator as to whether or not someone is going to be successful in this type of role. It's a very commercial well very relationship driven. People are rewarded largely off the back of how good they are building relationships and having a certain degree of commercial intuition rather than their ability to solve complex problems.

Jamie Woods: So as a result we hire a real broad spectrum of people we're not just getting people out of colleges but we're also getting people maybe who are. Excuse me what we call in the UK school leavers that people who have left education before going to college or even people who have moving into second careers people who are slightly older maybe spend a number of years in a given career and then looking to move into recruitment if someone's got the right kind of commercial aptitude and that type of person that we think we'll be out to build relationships with our clients and build a network within the appropriate candidate pool then realistically nothing else really matters that much whatever else is on their resumé. It might be useful but it's not necessarily a game changer. So we have to be very diverse as far as where we go about getting our candidates from and we have to have all sorts of different channels available to us. So we pretty much all the bits you mentioned we we cover them all. And we finally have to cover them all. Otherwise we're not able to hire the number of people that we need.

Malcolm Lui: Right. So what other channels other than colleges and universities do you find people. How do you find them or how did they find you.

Jamie Woods: Our most successful single channel is actually referrals from current employees. So we spend quite a bit of time making sure that our employees are networking within their own personal networks looking out for people who they think I've got the commercial skills necessary to be successful and I'm motivated by the right things in order to be successful and are approaching it accordingly. And part of a party that's us incentivizing that people get paid for everyone that they refer to us internally. But it's also teaching them what to look for and how to maybe get the most of my staff their networks. And that tends to in some of our offices that's the. That's. Accounts for the single most number of hires we've made. But in all of our offices referrals tend to end up being the most successful employees after a couple of years as well for a variety of different reasons. But that's that's the best channel that we use.

Malcolm Lui: Ok do you go through other channels. Are you posting on job boards. Are you advertising

Jamie Woods: Yes. Yes. So we advertise in a range different job boards. We'd go for the different geographies or we have different job boards maybe graduate specific or entry level specific. Like a lot of people these days we invest a substantial amount of money on linked in to get various efforts there. So that's one channel that is in sort of the giving yet but it's out there and getting people coming in appreciate us. We've got a lot of traction as well from what we call proactive approaches. So we subscribe to numerous different sort of resumé boards. So a well-known example is Munster for example but you know others which may be seen as resumé boards that effectively are like for example LinkedIn and we use those channels to proactively approach dozens if not hundreds of people every week to see what their interests might be. In our case what we've got to offer here and this particular type of career that that lasts a China as far as a proactive approach on those various resumé boards that would be our second most successful channel. Other than referrals.

Malcolm Lui: Right now on the training side. Can you maybe share a little bit about maybe the one key thing about your training of new hires that lead to their success

Jamie Woods: So we maybe spend a question has had a little bit. So we yet we provide very thorough structured tried and tried and tested over 10 years training. It's a it's a fairly strict Academy. It's typically eight weeks of training that people go through. Remember people are coming in with next to no if not no experience in recruitment sector. So there's a lot that we have to squeeze in. And normally after those eight weeks people understand the basics of the sort of entry level job that they'll be doing. So yes we've got a good training structure. And we invest quite a bit in it. I have to say that for us this particular sector the role of being a recruiter is the technical side of it how you go about managing your day to day it's it's not rocket science. It's not actually that difficult when you put it down on paper. So we've got a good training program but many of our competitors have a good training program as well because it's put together good training is not necessarily that difficult. What's more challenging is the level of care and management that these trainees receive once they're out of the initial training.

Jamie Woods: And I think that's where we really differentiate ourselves. I mean what we see in this sector what we see in a lot of sectors when it comes to entry level roles is people will come in maybe they'll get a an award winning training program for the first two or three months their career. But once they're out of that program they're kind of left in the wind and have to rely on their own wits to then make a success out themselves. And I think that's that's unacceptable to us because we know that doesn't end up having an optimal success rate. So where we invest a lot of time and effort and ultimately money is in making sure that gets the aftercare that these trainees get after training which is you know substantial management input lots of reviews on a fairly regular basis lots of peer to peer reviews various buddy systems and so continuous ongoing training for months if not years. That is what really differentiates us and it's allowed us to build a business out pretty much exclusive training. Ari

Malcolm Lui: Right. And that sounds like it also sideways into your third driver retention in culture right. Didn't be. Those are things you do to also encourage retention

Jamie Woods: Yeah

Malcolm Lui: People.

Jamie Woods: Yeah yeah. I mean take what you need in my experience and potentially as you got to make sure that people feel like they're growing year on year they need to look back and think actually I'm in a much better place than where I was a year ago and be confident that that momentum is going to be maintained throughout their career here. I think as soon as someone gets there and they start to think that they're on a bit of a plateau then that generally doesn't bode well for their future within it with any given business I think some people some people you hire they're going to they're going to do that themselves. You know they're going to be people are always striving and they're going to make sure they are growing by themselves. But a lot of people may need a little bit more help. They need to be an environment which maybe fosters that kind of attitude and provides a framework of continuous growth. And that's that's what we try and do. And you know part of that is yes the continuous management and reviewed part of that as well as making sure there's a very clear route of progression.

Jamie Woods: So I mean something I remember something I did even before before I hired the first person back in 2009 is I had a fully mapped out career plan. So I was able to tell this this first trainee I hired. This is the role that you'll be doing today but your next job which you could be doing six months is this is what your targets are and then a year later you could be doing this next job and so on all the way up until director so the theory being that every single person in the business has got complete clarity on what their next step is what they need to do to get to that next step and how long it conceivably should take for them to get there. And then as long as we provide all the assistance we can and making sure they have the tools they need to hit those targets then in theory they should never be in a situation where someone feels as though they're not growing. And for the most part yeah we get that right.

Malcolm Lui: Switching gears a little bit for two thousand ninety. You said before your primary growth driver was hiring. So how many people do you have today and how many people do you want to have by the end at the end of the year

Jamie Woods: So we have to need that number we have 90 90 something. So we've got mid 90s at the moment with full cost end up with about hundred fifteen hundred and twenty globally this year and I'd imagine that's probably where we'll end up. I always try and overshoot these things but I think this year we're maybe going to grow a little bit slower than we have done the last couple

Malcolm Lui: Ok. Now to hire another 25 30 people. It sounds to me you could actually do that very quickly if you wanted to

Jamie Woods: Not necessarily. No I mean you can you can do but no whilst keeping the setting. You can do if you lower the bar in terms of the type of people that you're bringing on board. I think if you think a lot of the people who end up not working out in those first couple years I referred to earlier a

Malcolm Lui: Any.

Jamie Woods: Lot of people tend to leave specifically within a six to 12 month and if they do leave in that market represents a substantial amount of references to a substantial loss for us partly the amount of money to be invested in that person as far as their salary training that management all the management time that's gone into it. A lot of it is just the extra I guess the opportunity costs of us not having hired someone else instead of then who is going to go on to be a future bright star within our business. So it's it's very important that we hire the right people if not perhaps if not the most important thing we do. Month to month and if I could if I could wave a magic wand and ensure that you know 80 or 90 percent of our hires were successful in that three EMR then we'd probably eventually end up being the biggest the most successful business in the world in not too distant future. So it's it's something that can provide a real competitive advantage if you're good at it. So as a result we've got the processes in place as far as how we go about assessing who's right and who's not right. And it really translates into us being very fussy So recruiting is is pretty difficult for us and that's why we have all these different channels that referred to earlier on this because we just need a very large number of candidates coming into the funnel for want of a better phrase because we're only a few of them at the bottom until we actually decide to hire. So growing by more than 20 people consider we need to hire 20 20 odd new people and then also we need more than that because would inevitably have people leave especially some of the more junior people that are in the business who maybe decide it's not right for them. They'll need to be replaced too in order to get that upper level headcount. So no that will actually still be quite a task.

Malcolm Lui: Ok. So how many people do you think you need to interview to actually get to your year end headcount target

Jamie Woods: We typically end up interviewing 10 to 15 people higher so we're talking hundreds of people would have to come through the doors for us to get to where we want to get to

Malcolm Lui: Right. Yeah I mean look on that metric that looks that looks a bit different right. I mean

Jamie Woods: Yeah.

Malcolm Lui: What

Jamie Woods: Yeah

Malcolm Lui: You're

Jamie Woods: It's

Malcolm Lui: Looking

Jamie Woods: A bit harder.

Malcolm Lui: At 300 people at least to fill 20 spots and you actually might need to interview

Jamie Woods: Yeah.

Malcolm Lui: More than that because you have people who are leaving as well.

Jamie Woods: Exactly. And that's that's face to face interviews that we'll have. Tell. We screen people on the phone. You're an early stage pre screening to see if they're worth coming into took role in a bit more detail and I think the ratio there. I think we speak to six or seven people for every one that we then invite for interview. So yeah it's well over a thousand people that we'll have to engage with over the next year to then translate to. That target headcount to go.

Malcolm Lui: Yeah and then your team. They're still doing all the other work on top of all this. Right.

Jamie Woods: Exotic. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's not easy.

Malcolm Lui: Yeah that is quite a handful. Now what do you do in terms of helping your team connect with people and find a job place job opportunities to fill

Jamie Woods: So we invest. A huge amount in technology. And that's that's one of the things that's changed my since I first got into recruitment back in 2005 or so. Now we invest in on technology linked in this is where the majority of that money goes to these days. Blinking is a very important network for most of our markets. A lot of people are on their way. Not everyone. So technology is really helpful. And there's a few other products that come up that should really be more specialist for recruiting industry that worked very well for us. But most importantly is is teaching our people some sort of fundamental networking skills. And that's again like another key area where you can get some real competitive advantage because while all the different technology that's come about with A specialty social networking satellite link to for example there's been a good side to it there's a bit of bad side to it. I mean the good side is you've got this you know as long as you can afford to pay for their professional services. You've got a sort of effectually convenient and huge and very easily searchable network at your fingertips which is obviously again as always you can forward as a business.

Jamie Woods: It's very good for us. The downside though is it has made it easy for a lot of professionals that work in any kind of environments where a network is important. Like for example any kind of sales job or of course recruitment. It's it allows them to maybe be a lot easier than they once were when it comes to sort of old fashioned networking and rapport building and all the rest of it. So one of the ways in which we differentiate ourselves is by making sure all of our people are very strong networkers in their own right. And would be able to be would have no problems at all if whatever reason they weren't able to use one of these fancy new social networking sites that we have access to. So it's basic things like making sure you know when they are speaking to someone that they actually are living what that person's network is and get to know the various people they know and give you the information they may have when it comes to giving them the information we have as well not just relying on the technology that we've got available.

Malcolm Lui: Right. Have you ever. Or are you looking to do some of the classical forms of marketing generating interest with prospective clients and and maybe being in touch with them over time and showing them best practices for hiring or career development strategy or whatever they might be interested in so that when they do have a need or hiring a outside recruitment firm they would think of you first

Jamie Woods: Yeah. So I mean most of our a lot of our marketing is affecting me and I get I might be confusing terminology here but none of it is just direct sales. So it's our consultants contacting clients directly when we have heard through our network that they've got a needs either right now or maybe a vacancy coming up make an introduction know presenting our services and breaking an arrangement accordingly. The our wide marketing you know times wider piece of how we present ourselves to the world in all honesty is one of the things that we haven't done so well over the history of the business for one reason other I think we under under invested in marketing for quite a while which is something we're now looking to remedy and we can apply to head of marketing for the first time about a year ago. He's charged with substantially upgrading our online presence and all the other different forms marketing that are out there. So I think our marketing tool has been historically quite limited. We've got lots of plans for the future in that regard. I think the problem is you've got all of our clients know who we are and our candidates within our specialist markets know who we are. But there's not that much else going on beyond that. So people that we're not already in touch with don't necessarily have a background understanding of who we are so people calling us up out of the blue to use us for example probably doesn't happen as much as it would do if we'd invested more heavy marketing from an earlier stage.

Malcolm Lui: Right. Got it. Three. Last question for you. If if J.S. W. or maybe longer brands were to half a billboard in fact one of the other recruitment firms I talked to interviewed he actually did a billboard put a billboard right in front of a prospective

Jamie Woods: It's.

Malcolm Lui: Client and was able to win their

Jamie Woods: Really.

Malcolm Lui: Bid. Yeah that's quite clever but if you were to have a billboard well be your billboard message. And keep in mind most billboards on a freeway people now have six seconds to see it for the drive by. What's your six second billboard message.

Jamie Woods: I would say we work hard and we work smart. We do both.

Malcolm Lui: All right Ricard works smart on recruiting.

Jamie Woods: Yep.

Malcolm Lui: Got it. And who are your ideal clients. I know you have four different brands so feel free. When I go into the ideal clients of each of the brands and what's the best way for them to reach your team

Jamie Woods: Yeah. I'll keep it breaks any pretty much any firm of any size. If you're looking to hire across sales marketing risk audit governance finance tax change or I.T. then we are in a position to help you whether you're looking to hire people on a permanent basis or even just people on a short term contract basis. Mid-level or senior. We can do pretty much all across those different disciplines. Best way to contact us probably via the Web site. W w w dot J CW resources dot com. My contact details are on there as are all about consultants each of which with their specialist fields which are. Easily labeled drop us a line and we'll get back in touch immediately.

Malcolm Lui: Jamie it's been awesome having you on my show today. I really enjoyed hearing how you grew your company so fast

Jamie Woods: Nice great talking to you. Appreciate your time.

Malcolm Lui: We've been speaking with Jamie Woods, the CEO of JCW, about his company's rapid growth. For interviews with other fast growing, high value sales companies, or to learn how we can accelerate your firm's high value sales through automation, visit Eversprint.com.

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